NATURE VS. NURTURE
Warning: I feel a little strongly on this subject today.
“Men have a lower capacity for love.”
I thought I’d just throw that out there since it’s been a statement I’ve been struggling with of late. Who said it? Let’s just say it was a guy who I really love and respect. And it really hurt me when he said it. Hurt meaning it really pissed me off, of course.
It all started when, after listening to Laurie Brown’s 2006 RWA workshop tape “MEN TALK DIFFERENT,” I decided to engage this man in a conversation about whether all the things we’re told about men (in case you didn’t know, “men just aren’t as emotional as women,” “they use language for things other than emotion,” & “when you ask them a question expect an honest, very concise answer and don’t expect them to read between the lines”) was really just a big old COP OUT on the part of men AND women. He made the statement. I got mad. End of story? Not quite.
A part of me has always believed that a man will treat you as bad as you let him, and since I like being treated well, I ask a lot of the men in my life. (Let’s not forget I have 3 young sons that I adore but that I also feel challenged to raise to be heroic men.) I refuse to accept that it’s in a man’s true nature to (among other things) have to watch porn, make comments about other women that will make their girlfriends/wives feel uncomfortable, be emotionally distant, not be a nurturer, or not be monogomous because they have a genetic need to spread their DNA (and can until their 100 with multiple women). I understand the whole anthropological/evolutionary argument that men were designed for a different purpose than women. My response?
Been there, done that.
The key word in that sentence is “evolutionary.” Men evolve. They’re intelligent. They know what’s right and wrong, they know it’s polite to ask a woman how she’s feeling, and they know it’s in their best interest to rise to the occasion and be an evolved man when they’re asked to and even when they’re not.
Now, all that said, I was shocked (SHOCKED) when I talked to a very enlightened, modern woman who I deeply respect yesterday (my therapist) and she expressed this personal opinion: men have a lower capacity for love. Uh, WHAT?
She said it’s something that a lot of smart women end up struggling with, but that the key is to understand that while this lower capacity might be inherent in men, they can actually INCREASE their capacity by ACTING loving/emotional/etc. and reaping the rewards of those actions.
My first reaction was that this sounded a little self-serving on a man’s part. I mean, in order to have them act loving they needed to get something out of it? Humph. What a concept.
Okay, so what does this all have to do with heroes? I think a lot. Heroes are men, in my opinion, who necessarily have to rise above and defeat amazing odds to show their love for the heroine/mankind and what greater odds are there than their own true nature? Again, it goes back to the burning desire in women to be a man’s one and only, and their fantasy that love is more powerful than anything else.
QUESTION OF THE DAY:
Do you think people expect enough from each other? Can you give an example of when someone in your life overcome nature in order to nurture?
March 19th, 2008
Virna 
in
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March 19th, 2008 at 11:22 am
After a bad divorce I was single for several years. When decided to get involved again with someone, I had criteria’s. They had to be kind, sensitive and tough. I found that right in front of me in the form of my good friend. We eventually married. We’ve had some bumps in our married road, but I don’t know what I’d do without him. When my mother was dying, I went to be with my dad for three months. He never once complained, and instead drove four hours once a week to see me and her. He made it so I could be there with her. He held down the fort and kept everything and anything that might distract me, away. I don’t know what I would have done without him. I asked him about things, and he’d just say, “Don’t worry, I’ve got it handled.”
My whole focus was the time I had left with my mother, and taking care of my dad. When she passed, he stepped back and let me handle my large complicated family as I saw fit. He had my back, and cried at my mother’s funeral.
I think your therapist is very wrong. Men are very capable of deep love. I’ve witnessed it more times in my life then I could write about. But they’re wired differently then we are. And no matter what we do to try to change that, we can’t. I could go on and on this subject. I’ll just leave it with this, because of men, the majority of romance writers are women, so we can create our heroes as we see fit. It takes us away from the toilet seat left up, and dirty laundry that doesn’t hit the basket and when they don’t hear our hearts.
March 19th, 2008 at 11:31 am
Ok, I’m not much of an active feminist in the modern sense of the word…in fact, I’m more of a submissive looking for her dom. But before I’ll submit, a man has got to be worthy of my submission. So I’m calling total bullshit on that “lower capacity to love” excuse. Gold diggers and man-eating women aside, the average woman is not asking for much by hoping for a little love and affection.
I don’t think women expect or require enough out of men. I think that too often women “settle” and let men get away with under performing. I think women should demand better from men or stop putting up with them, if you know what I mean. It would have to be a collective effort, though, and near impossible. Because if there’s always another chick around the corner that doesn’t require decent treatment, then the male will just go there.
Think about it….women have proven willing to change a whole hell of a lot about their natural make up to make men happy, even allowing their body to be carved up on a surgery table in efforts to look like a centerfold. Some women even submit to multiple sex partners to keep their men happy. Some women may want to do that for their own pleasure, and if they do, then cool, go have fun. But some women do it only as a pleasure for males.
Most of the things that women dream about in men are character issues that are more easily attained, such as accepting her for what she is, not abusing her, not running around at night, loving her, protecting her, being a good provider or at least contributing to the household income, and showing a little affection and passion. These are things that should be attainable to most men. It’s a hell of a lot easier to show a little love and tenderness than it is to look like Angelina Jolie after she’s been Photoshopped into looking so outrageous that she’s almost like a comic strip character.
Yet, all too many men think that not only is that natural, but that they, with their paunchy tummies and receding hairlines, should require that level of physical perfection in a woman.
That being said I also think that there are good men to be had, they’re just damned hard to find. They’ve been hurt too and have either given up as many women have, or they’re just protecting themselves and keeping a distance.
So, no, I don’t think we expect enough of each other. If we did, then their wouldn’t be as much poor behavior becoming the norm, and the good ones wouldn’t be so difficult to find.
March 19th, 2008 at 7:46 pm
It’s such a hot topic, isn’t it! I felt as vehement as you did, Lone. And still do. I’m happy I’m not the only one who thinks people too easily accept poor behavior by making excuses about “natural tendencies.” And your point about men expecting women to be physically perfect is so enlightening to me on this subject!
Lee-your husband sounds amazing and the greatest thing is you know that is someone who will be there for you when you are sick or old or just in need of comfort. I think men are great, but I definitely see them as more limited. I haven’t had the kind of experience you have without having to fight for it or feel a little guilty.
Great responses, ladies!
March 19th, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Sometimes I think we expect too much from people, and other times I feel we don’t expect enough. I think it’s all a balancing act, and a lot depends on how we’re feeling at any given time. I’d say there are definite times when nature clearly outweighs any sense of nurture my husband (for example) may have, but then when it really matters, he does reach deep inside, push aside the ‘I’m a man, be like me and deal with it’ tendencies, and instead gives what I need.
But to say that men have a lower capacity for love? I really don’t agree with that. How can you even measure love? Affection, yes, but love is individual and can be shown in myriad ways. When my husband buys flowers to plant in the yard that he knows I’ll love, it may not be a traditionnal expression of love, but it’s one of the ways he shows love. Because it’s not shown in the way that I might show it doesn’t mean he doesn’t feel love as deeply as I do.
Don’t men write all those love songs?! They have to have a deep capacity for love. It’s the showing it in measurable ways that’s the challenge. So maybe that’s what our heroes must overcome. They can feel unworthy and go through all the other wringers we novelists put them through, but finding ways to show love to the heroine that is true to their character is meaningful.
I know I rambling and repeating myself now… I’m tired! Great post, V. And my, you DO feel strongly about it, don’t you?!
March 20th, 2008 at 9:23 am
This really is a great topic. This is both my husband and mines, second marriage. And I did get lucky. But my husband had learned some lessons from the failure of his first marriage. I was told, as the second wife I get all the good stuff, a bigger diamond, more attention, understanding, etc. With men, they can get better with age. Its just getting there with them, and surviving all the bullshit in between.
My first marriage was a mess from start to finish. Now there is a man, who hasn’t learned anything. He treats his current wife as bad, if not worse then he treated me. He doesn’t get it and never will.
And good point Misa, men do write all those love songs, then go off be jerks. What’s up with that?
March 20th, 2008 at 10:17 am
Good point, Lee. I have been suspecting that men really do get better with age. With most men, there’s a big difference in their behaviors, abilities, and desires when they’re 25 or 30, and when they’re 40+.
March 20th, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Lone, look at it this way, boys mature slower then girls, (we’re always ahead) so as men, it hasn’t changed. Usually when they hit their 40’s they’ve realized they aren’t boys anymore. Then comes the toys stage…We went through the Harley stage. I liked that one, until he almost was killed. He sold it. Now its the grandkids. Whatever they want they just ask Poppy. He has a lot of fun playing video games with them. And the wisdom has come with his late 50’s. My husband is so wise, its scary. But it took a lot of hard lessons to get to this stage, I’m happy I stuck it out with him, its been worth it in the long run.
March 21st, 2008 at 12:56 pm
That’s a toughy. I suppose it’s all about what floats your boat. Some women don’t mind catering to a man, where other’s prefer to have their man catering to them. Some people give more, others receive more. Relationships vary and can be quite confusing and messy. That’s probably why so many of us love to read romance. It’s great to know you’ll have a happy ending.
April 6th, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Well this is depressing. Stop writing like that, your posts are spoiling your reader’s mood. Boring.